USAF wants to retire 33 Raptors

[milosh]

When the F-22 gets its IRST and helmet mounted sight, it will be much more capable than the F-35 in air to air. Not even an argument.

WVR and stealths mean you did something wrong at least for now because China is only one with decent number of stealths but it is still far behind in numbers compared to US. All other opponents use 4gen fighters so steatlhs are expect not to get in wvr in first place with them. And with big number of F-15 and F-16, opponent 4gens will go against them as rule.

So it all came down to number of AIM-120 or AIM-260 plane will carry. Side kick would allow F-35 to carry same number of BVR missiles and with DAS and probable much better IRST, and of course new avionics package F-35 have, I don't think F-22 is noticeable better in BVR, its missiles will have nice kinematic boost but sensors are on F-35 side.

Also with AETP engine how knows maybe F-35 will be able to super cruise?

[retchief70]

I worked the program from 2001 until 2015, so am unfamiliar with the latest structural mods. I do know that the heat treat issue on the early birds could only have been permanently resolved with disassembly of the aircraft and replacement of the affected components. This was not done. It would have been less expensive to build new aircraft. Just can't help thinking that structural integrity issues are in play when the powers that be consider retirement of the early jets. If they are retired and there is no dedicated training squadron, or even if there is, that begs additional questions I'd address in another post.

[Corsair1963]

Why not reduce the number of F-22's for NGAD? As I stated before we (the general public) do not know what the NGAD will entail. As I stated before the US Military is keeping the NGAD close to its chest. A lot can happen between now and when the NGAD will eventually come into service. The US economic crash (let go Brandon) will definitely have an effect on NGAD funding. The technology for the NGAD could take longer to develop and mature, look at early F-35 and F-22 program. Changes in military, political, and international events and priorities will change. Until that time it is a better decision (IMHO) to keep the best air-to-air platform available until such aircraft finally starts to hit IOC.

For USAF, Russian AF wasn't problem even before this war, now it is clear Russian AF is probable able to be contained by euNATO AFs only!

So why then not retire some F-22? I repeat my self again, F-22 is design to fight future Soviet AF over Europe (or to be more precise over Germany) which mean you don't need big range. We are talking about plane which is almost 21tons empty (weapons and pilot) and carry +8tons of fuel and have low bypass engines nicknamed leaky turbojets which surely don't help with range.

PLAAF is what concern USAF. And to fight PLAAF you NEED RANGE.

So investing more in NGAD using F-22 cuts would provide additional funds when US economy is okey is smart move.

Btw calling me Russkie fanboy is nonsense. On other forums I am called US fanboy when dealing with "Russia stronk" bunch. I know I pissed many here because it look to use facts as much as I can, so I am not "Murica stronk" as most here are and yes I do make mistakes like you point out for F-15 tvc, but it doesn't change what I wrote USAF is just fine without F-22 against this RuAF.

Honestly, I don't see the F-22's lasting past 2030. Because it would be far more worthwhile to just buy new F-35's. While pursuing the NGAD.

IMHO

[Corsair1963]

When the F-22 gets its IRST and helmet mounted sight, it will be much more capable than the F-35 in air to air. Not even an argument.

WVR and stealths mean you did something wrong at least for now because China is only one with decent number of stealths but it is still far behind in numbers compared to US. All other opponents use 4gen fighters so steatlhs are expect not to get in wvr in first place with them. And with big number of F-15 and F-16, opponent 4gens will go against them as rule.

So it all came down to number of AIM-120 or AIM-260 plane will carry. Side kick would allow F-35 to carry same number of BVR missiles and with DAS and probable much better IRST, and of course new avionics package F-35 have, I don't think F-22 is noticeable better in BVR, its missiles will have nice kinematic boost but sensors are on F-35 side.

Also with AETP engine how knows maybe F-35 will be able to super cruise?

The F-22's principle advantage is high and fast. Yet, the F-35 has many advantages of its own. From better Stealth, Sensor Fusion and even weapons in some cases. (Meteor)

This will only improve over time. As the Block 4, 5, etc. come online. Along with a new engine that offers even more power and range.

The latter will be far more versatile and a better bridge to the NGAD.

[disconnectedradical]

The F-22's principle advantage is high and fast. Yet, the F-35 has many advantages of its own. From better Stealth, Sensor Fusion and even weapons in some cases. (Meteor)

This will only improve over time. As the Block 4, 5, etc. come online. Along with a new engine that offers even more power and range.

The latter will be far more versatile and a better bridge to the NGAD.

AIM-260 will be first fitted on the F-22. The sensors on the F-22 is also being constantly enhanced, and if a long range IRST is added, there's little sensor advantage for the F-35 when it comes to air-to-air.

F-35 is not a bridge to the NGAD. USAF specifically said that F-22 retirement will be contingent on NGAD fielding, not anything F-35 related.

[Corsair1963]

The F-22's principle advantage is high and fast. Yet, the F-35 has many advantages of its own. From better Stealth, Sensor Fusion and even weapons in some cases. (Meteor)

This will only improve over time. As the Block 4, 5, etc. come online. Along with a new engine that offers even more power and range.

The latter will be far more versatile and a better bridge to the NGAD.

AIM-260 will be first fitted on the F-22. The sensors on the F-22 is also being constantly enhanced, and if a long range IRST is added, there's little sensor advantage for the F-35 when it comes to air-to-air.

F-35 is not a bridge to the NGAD. USAF specifically said that F-22 retirement will be contingent on NGAD fielding, not anything F-35 related.

Honestly, I think the early retirement of the Block 20 F-22's is just a precursor to the retirement of the whole fleet of Raptors. As the smaller and smaller the fleet becomes.The more and more expensive they will be to upgrade and maintain.

As for the AIM-260, I am sure the F-35s assigned to "Air Superiority" will also get it early.

Again I believe the F-22's will be retired by ~ 2030 and just be replaced with additional F-35's. Maybe even upgraded Block 5 and with the Adaptive Cycle Engine. These will bridge the gap until the NGAD arrives post 2040.

Let's not forget even when the NGAD does start to come online. It will just be a trickle....they will first have to go to TEST and OCU before ever seeing a frontline combat squadron.

[disconnectedradical]

Honestly, I think the early retirement of the Block 20 F-22's is just a precursor to the retirement of the whole fleet of Raptors. As the smaller and smaller the fleet becomes.The more and more expensive they will be to upgrade and maintain.

As for the AIM-260, I am sure the F-35s assigned to "Air Superiority" will also get it early.

Again I believe the F-22's will be retired by ~ 2030 and just be replaced with additional F-35's. Maybe even upgraded Block 5 and with the Adaptive Cycle Engine. These will bridge the gap until the NGAD arrives post 2040.

Let's not forget even when the NGAD does start to come online. It will just be a trickle....they will first have to go to TEST and OCU before ever seeing a frontline combat squadron.

No, USAF specifically said that money saved from retiring Block 20 F-22s can be better spent upgrading combat coded F-22s, read the article yourself.

USAF repeatedly said that F-22 retirement is event driven by NGAD fielding, and that they will only start getting phased out when NGAD is operational in sufficient numbers, because these are optimized for air-to-air. The F-35 is not a factor in this.

Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development...
“We don’t have to make that decision this year,” he said. “What we’re going to want to see is, when do we press from the NGAD being a developmental program to being a production program? Some people call that milestone C.”

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/

Believe what you want, it doesn't align with what USAF actually said.

[Corsair1963]

No, USAF specifically said that money saved from retiring Block 20 F-22s can be better spent upgrading combat coded F-22s, read the article yourself.

USAF repeatedly said that F-22 retirement is event driven by NGAD fielding, and that they will only start getting phased out when NGAD is operational in sufficient numbers, because these are optimized for air-to-air. The F-35 is not a factor in this.

The USAF says many things. Hell, it didn't want the F-15EX then it did....Oh, and a week ago had no plans to retire any F-22's. Now they want to retire 33 Block 20's.

Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development...
“We don’t have to make that decision this year,” he said. “What we’re going to want to see is, when do we press from the NGAD being a developmental program to being a production program? Some people call that milestone C.”

Threats change, Budgets change, and new Generals take over.....So, yes today they plan of keeping the remaining ~ 153 F-22's in service until the NGAD comes online.

My opinion is that will "never" happen.

So, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Believe what you want, it doesn't align with what USAF actually said.

At the moment the Biden Administration, DOD, and the Services aren't aligned by very much........

[charlielima223]

As a multi-role aircraft, yes. As a pure air-to-air, no. While competent in the air-to-air role the F-35 WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE A 5th GENERATION AIR SUPERIORITY/DOMINANCE. Try to skew you all you like but that is a FACT. Also as the guests for the F-15C and F-22 episodes have mentioned over at The Fighter Pilot Podcast, those pilots bread and butter training is mainly focused in the air-to-air role. The same cannot be said about pilots of the F-16, F-15E, and F-35. The pilots of those other platforms often have to train to so many different types of mission sets that air-to-air has become secondary to everything else they train to.

Though lets not turn this into a F-35 vs F-22 thread...

Yes, the F-15C and F-22A were designed as Air Superiority Fighters. Yet, the multirole F-16's Air to Air Record is nearly as impressive as the formers. So, spare me the "not a pound for air-to-ground" mentality of air superiority as some gift from god to the fighter world.

Nonetheless, simple fact is the F-35 is more than capable of handling any "Air Threat" that the F-22 can today and in the foreseeable future. (pre-2040) At least until the NGAD arrives.

Lastly, at this moment we have F-35 Fighter Squadrons assigned to the "Air Superiority Role" as their primary mission. (for example 421st FS) One that they perform admirably at.

You really think the ~153 aircraft fleet of the F-22's are going to be the only fighters tasked to the Air Superiority Role until ~ 2040 when the NGAD will "start" to show up.....

I tend to look at it as a simple minded ground pounder. If there is an HVT who would be better suited for that mission? CAG, SEALs, Rangers, or a platoon of regular infantry?

F-35's are being pressed into the air superiority realm because as noted in older threads, the USAF never got the adequate numbers of F-22s they needed (381). In a better world where that happened F-15Cs would have been happily retired and F-35s wouldnt have to be pressed into air-to-air. F-35's were originally never meant to replace F-15Cs but rather F-16s, A-10s, and F-15Es. As I am reading the writing on the wall correctly the intended purchase number for F-35s still reflect on replacing those aircraft on a near one-to-one bases.
You mention F-35's going into traditional air-to-air combat squadrons. I point to when Tomcat crews stuck around and transitioned to the Super Hornet. Even though the Tomcat was conducting various types of air-to-ground missions/operations at the sunset of their service, air-to-air was still the bread and butter training/role. When they got to the Super Hornet the air-to-air training gradually became less of a priority (current ongoing military operations at the time definitely had a hand in that).

Sure I got my handy-dandy multi-tool for most things that I do but when I know I need them, I will use a purpose built tool for the job.

As disconnectedradical mentioned USAF Command, F-22's retirement is based on the progress of NGAD, NOT on how many F-35s there are and how good you say they are. Looking at the current trend in advanced military programs, expect delays and slippage from original estimated dates. Early in the ATF it was said those aircraft would start to enter service in the 90s. F-35 was supposed to enter service in the early 2000's until the program had to be rebaselined. Currently we know nothing of the NGAD and where it is in terms of the overall program timeline. They are saying 2040s but (call me cynical) do we really believe that date will hold?

This thread is about retiring F-22s early, not F-35 rah rah rah. If you want to talk about the F-35 being the bestest at everything please take it over to the F-35 thread.

[charlielima223]

At the moment the Biden Administration, DOD, and the Services aren't aligned by very much........

Biden Administration is aligned and controlled by their radical leftist base.

[disconnectedradical]

The USAF says many things. Hell, it didn't want the F-15EX then it did....Oh, and a week ago had no plans to retire any F-22's. Now they want to retire 33 Block 20's.

So are you just going to pick and choose what you want to hear? Even the latest statements about retiring the Block 20 F-22s state that the money saved can be invested to upgrading other F-22s.

Threats change, Budgets change, and new Generals take over.....So, yes today they plan of keeping the remaining ~ 153 F-22's in service until the NGAD comes online.

My opinion is that will "never" happen.

So, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Based on what? Why would USAF invest almost $11 billion into F-22 upgrades to 2031 and spend over $1 billion this year in NGAD?

[wrightwing]

Based on what? Why would USAF invest almost $11 billion into F-22 upgrades to 2031 and spend over $1 billion this year in NGAD?

Exactly. We're already short aircraft, and not currently buying F-35s fast enough, and now we're going to retire all F-22s before NGAD enters service? That's quite simply, bullshit. We're spending billions on upgrades to the combat coded F-22s, which won't even be finished till the end of the decade. Those 153 jets aren't going anywhere until NGAD is available in numbers, and demonstrated maturity, just like General after General have said. F-22s will serve alongside NGAD for years, before the fleet is divested. We've got to replace F-16, and A-10 squadrons along with F-15C squadrons, long before we can think about replacing F-22 squadrons.

[charlielima223]

Exactly. We're already short aircraft, and not currently buying F-35s fast enough, and now we're going to retire all F-22s before NGAD enters service? That's quite simply, bullshit. We're spending billions on upgrades to the combat coded F-22s, which won't even be finished till the end of the decade. Those 153 jets aren't going anywhere until NGAD is available in numbers, and demonstrated maturity, just like General after General have said. F-22s will serve alongside NGAD for years, before the fleet is divested. We've got to replace F-16, and A-10 squadrons along with F-15C squadrons, long before we can think about replacing F-22 squadrons.

I wholeheartedly agree. As i stated earlier...

Currently we know nothing of the NGAD and where it is in terms of the overall program timeline. They are saying 2040s but (call me cynical) do we really believe that date will hold?

A lot can happen between now and 2040. All we have to go on about the NGAD is a wishlist of capabilities and artist concept renderings. How far along in the process are they really? I know they mentioned they flew somekind of technology prototype but I am taking that claim with an entire bag of salt. Until some kind of public display is released keeping the F-22 (albeit a small token force) around for as long as possible is the better option. F-15C needs to be replaced, NOT the F-22.

[Corsair1963]

[

So are you just going to pick and choose what you want to hear? Even the latest statements about retiring the Block 20 F-22s state that the money saved can be invested to upgrading other F-22s.

Aren't you picking and choosing what you want to hear???? I have stated many times that I believe they will retire the F-22 before 2040 and likely by 2030. This is not a recent opinion. I've actually been stating that for some time now.

Then just recently the USAF announces that they want to retire "33" F-22's out of 185 aircraft. That is a sizable number and it's only early 2022!

You (and others) seem to take whatever they say at the moment as the "gospel". Yet, the reality is that almost always changes.

Regardless, I am just expressing my personal opinion. Just like everyone here. So, what is the problem?

Based on what? Why would USAF invest almost $11 billion into F-22 upgrades to 2031 and spend over $1 billion this year in NGAD?

In the current US Defense Budget the US is retiring an number of new ships. Some have just entered service. Hell, in the past the USAF has purchased new aircraft. Then flew them directly to Davis-Monthan and put them into storage.

I'll explain my opinion one last time. My contention is as time goes and as the F-22 Fleet becomes smaller and smaller. The US Government is likely to conclude. They would prefer to just buy more F-35's until the NGAD arrives. This keeps F-35 production up and continues to advance the program and sell even more F-35's.

Also, remember a more advanced F-35 appears to be in the works. That would include one of the new ACE Engines. Which, sounds like it would appear around say 2030? Wouldn't that make a great F-22 replacement until the NGAD arrive post 2040...

That is my thinking.........

[disconnectedradical]

Your thinking is delusional because it is all based on your assumption that F-35 is somehow as good as an F-22 and can replace it before NGAD becomes operational. This is false. The F-35 will be good at air combat, but it's not as good as an F-22, and the USAF still cares very much about a dedicated air superiority platform in the NGAD, even if it will have some multirole ground attack ability (just like F-22 now). They wouldn't be investing so heavily in NGAD if the F-35 is as good as you say, would they?

The F-35 is not a bridge between F-22 and NGAD, no matter how much you think, and you're making bad assumptions on what the USAF wants in terms of air superiority.

Also, fix your broken quoting.