F-22 Raptor: 20 Years of Air Dominance

[mixelflick]

And the "more reach" advantage will just get bigger, as the AIM-260 (and possibly other) long range weapons are fielded. If I'm not mistaken, F-22 is the first aircraft slated to get them.

The F-35 will adopt the missile too, just at a later date.

[Corsair1963]

And the "more reach" advantage will just get bigger, as the AIM-260 (and possibly other) long range weapons are fielded. If I'm not mistaken, F-22 is the first aircraft slated to get them.

The F-35 will adopt the missile too, just at a later date.

If, memory serves me the Raptor and the Super Hornet are to get them first. Then the F-35 at a later date...

[Scorpion1alpha]

YF-22's first flight: 1990

img_31_1_1.jpg (26.56 KiB) Viewed 3206 times

F-22A (4001) first flight: 1997

TAI TF Kann's first flight: 2024

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[jetblast16]

Nothing beats the original

[mixelflick]

Unlike the KF-21, that Turkish bird has potential IMO....

It appears to be much larger, and has much more powerful engines. Potential therefore exists for it to carry much larger radar, more weapons/fuel and most importantly appears to be a truly stealthy. Not clear whether Turkey really has the know how/industry/electronics expertise to pull it off though. I wonder if it would have ever come about, had they insisted on S-400's/got snubbed by the F-35 program.

[disconnectedradical]

Nothing beats the original

If by original you mean the YF-22, then I disagree because it was quite clunky and rushed design since the Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics group did a pretty late redesign of the whole aircraft after they got selected for Dem/Val. The F-22 is so much better since they finally were to take that basic shape but do a lot of refining and smoothing things out, and they were able to refine and smoothly blend the shape and it shows with the F-22 have much better performance than YF-22. Meanwhile the YF-23 didn’t need to go through this late redesign since they Northrop/McDonnell Douglas team mainly just stuck with Northrop’s original design, which may also explain why the YF-23 has better performance, it was more refined and mature at that point while the YF-22 was rushed from that redesign. F-22 was able to catch up once Lockheed was able to refine and mature the shape.

Although I think we all took for granted how smoothly blended and refined the F-22 shape is by this point, because all of the follow on designs with similar shape like FC-31/J-35, KF-21, Kaan look clunkier and less smooth than the Raptor. And ironically the FC-31/J-35 may be the closest to the F-22 in terms of how refined and smoothly blended it is. It’s amazing how much of a difference these details make.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Having the right OML of a VLO airframe doesn't mean much if your materials engineering and production processes aren't up to the task. The devil is in the details here. The F-117 was VLO, but it had to make a ton of sacrifices to get there. The B-2 was even more impressive in this regard, but needed climate controlled hangars. The F-22 took things a step further as the first real super sonic VLO tactical combat platform where it often seems like the only compromise was an A-G payload (and even that they found work arounds). The real magic of the F-35 is the fiber mat for the skin, where surface damage doesn't degrade the VLO properties significantly. The F-22 and F-35 demonstrate such tight tolerances in construction that the joints can appear seamless. Case in point the image below

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https% ... 98dbe68b5d

The H-Stabs appear to bend because of the small design details and the construction tolerances. So looking like an F-22 from the front doesn't mean much if the other details aren't met.

[hornetfinn]

Definitely. For example reproducing Saturn V rockets from the Apollo program these days is still a huge and very expensive task even though technology has improved enormously. SpaceX is doing that (and more) at the moment with Starship, but it shows how much all kinds of good old fashioned engineering and manufacturing skills/capabilities must be developed and perfected even these days. Of course many things are a lot easier these days due to new technologies, but they are still not easy or cheap to do. I see stealth technology being similar as that requires very specialized skills, technologies and techniques to be developed in multiple areas. Developing a true VLO aircraft is difficult and requires a lot of hard work and is thus very expensive and difficult.

I do think that Turkey can probably develop pretty advanced aircraft if they put a lot of effort and money to it. It seems like they intend to do that as they are significantly increasing their defense expenditures. Another country that might become more significant player in the future is Indonesia. They are also increasing their budgets but don't have much of their own defense industry yet. But they have quite significant economy and could spend a lot more money on defense in the coming years. But they might be interested in TAI Kaan for example.

[Scorpion1alpha]

Unlike the KF-21, that Turkish bird has potential IMO....

It appears to be much larger, and has much more powerful engines. Potential therefore exists for it to carry much larger radar, more weapons/fuel and most importantly appears to be a truly stealthy.

At this point, I would say the Kaan’s design is ahead of the Korean KF-21 by a significant margin. To me, I’m interested in how big it’s main weapon bays are because they look a tad wide and could possibly carry more than 4 Meteors. Also, if it has side weapons bays, will it carry the so-called indigenous Merlin missile or another type ?

If by original you mean the YF-22, then I disagree because it was quite clunky and rushed design since the Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics group did a pretty late redesign of the whole aircraft after they got selected for Dem/Val. The F-22 is so much better since they finally were to take that basic shape but do a lot of refining and smoothing things out, and they were able to refine and smoothly blend the shape and it shows with the F-22 have much better performance than YF-22…F-22 was able to catch up once Lockheed was able to refine and mature the shape.

Northrop/McD guys were brought in from the YF-23 program (TP Paul Metz was probably the biggest name) to help further develop and refine the YF-22 after winning the ATF competition. LM/Boeing/GD can thank them for that.

Having the right OML of a VLO airframe doesn't mean much if your materials engineering and production processes aren't up to the task. The devil is in the details here.

I still remember what retired GD/LM TP Jon Beesley once said about the F-22 and it went something like:

It’s not easy to build (the F-22). And that’s for a reason. It’s an advanced machine with a lot of tolerances built into the design.

Nothing beats the original

Agree.

How about some F-22 supermaneuvrability flair with flares (Photo credits to respective owners):

[Corsair1963]

Clearly, the Turkish KAAN is closer to being a true 5th Generation Fighter at this stage. Yet, the KF-21 is further along in overall development and nearing production.

So, by time the KAAN actually enters service. The Block III KF-21 maybe close too....

In short, I think I would wait a little longer before I jumped to any conclusions. (just saying)

[charlielima223]

https://www.afrc.af.mil/About-Us/Innova ... id-Raptor/

The Rapid Raptor concept seeks to quickly deploy a package of F-22 Raptors and supporting logistics to any forward operating base in the world, and have the aircraft in combat-ready status within 24 hours of employment.

The deployment package uses at least one C-17 Globemaster III aircraft to swiftly move, refuel and rearm a minimum of four F-22s in unfamiliar, austere environments, with a smaller footprint.

The ability to launch F-22s to a non-traditional location with a complement of additional pilots, embedded maintenance, and fuel and munitions allows for unprecedented flexibility in fifth-generation fighter aircraft deployment.

Deployment schedules, mission tasking and supply chains can now be shorter and more flexible. Commanders can shape the adversary's response plans, provide realistic first-strike capability and enable follow-on operations with a degree of credibility only possible when the adversary doesn't know exactly how the deployment will develop.

If jets, no matter how technically advanced, tactically skilled and strategically sound in the air, can leap only from well-known base to well-known base, their first-strike threat is limited. That has fundamentally changed for the Raptor.

Rapid Raptor it seems is no longer a concept

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/photo ... -exercise/

[hornetfinn]

Very good!

I bet the latest world events have a lot to do with this, although the concept itself is over a decade old with F-22. Besides the stated offensive advantages it gives, it also gives similar defensive advantages. Let's say USA does something like Operation Desert Shield 2.0. By getting a handful of these deployment packages to suitable airbases would quickly create very useful deterrence to allow larger forces to arrive. Basically similar was done by F-15Cs during the Operation Desert Shield in 1990. Of course things are a bit more difficult with F-22 due to their more complex systems, but I think it's just a matter of preparing and planning properly.

[disconnectedradical]

Very good!

I bet the latest world events have a lot to do with this, although the concept itself is over a decade old with F-22. Besides the stated offensive advantages it gives, it also gives similar defensive advantages. Let's say USA does something like Operation Desert Shield 2.0. By getting a handful of these deployment packages to suitable airbases would quickly create very useful deterrence to allow larger forces to arrive. Basically similar was done by F-15Cs during the Operation Desert Shield in 1990. Of course things are a bit more difficult with F-22 due to their more complex systems, but I think it's just a matter of preparing and planning properly.

Actually I think the Rapid Raptor concept was initially created as a way to deploy the F-22 with less of a logistics tail. Then as we looked at the increasingly A2AD environment where large permanent installations close to the front lines may not be survivable, Rapid Raptor then became a stepping stone for Agile Combat Employment, where you are more dispersed for survivability, which required new innovations and processes to reduce logistics tail.

[weasel1962]

F-22 mishap.
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... -exercise/

This story was updated May 6 at 6:01 p.m. EST with details about the squadron the aircraft is assigned to and a comment from the leader of the Air Dominance Center.

The Air Force is investigating the cause of a mishap involving an F-22 Raptor during an Air National Guard fighter exercise Monday.

The pilot was not injured in the mishap, which occurred around 11:30 a.m. local time at Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport in Georgia, according to the 165th Airlift Wing, which hosts Savannah Sentry, a counterair exercise for fourth- and fifth-generation fighter jets from across the Air National Guard.

The aircraft is assigned to the 71st Fighter Squadron at Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Virginia. Additional details about the incident and the status of the aircraft’s damage was not available Monday evening.

“Thank you to all the first responders who arrived on scene,” Col. Stephen Thomas, commander of the Air Dominance Center at Savannah Air National Guard Base, Georgia, said in a statement. “Sentry Savannah is all about showcasing readiness and today’s mishap affirmed our airmen’s ability to respond at a moment’s notice.”

Sentry Savannah will continue as scheduled, with no impacts to future flying operations, the 165th Airlift Wing said.

The mishap is the second to occur in the last week. On April 30, an F-16 Fighting Falcon assigned to the 49th Wing crashed outside of Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico. The pilot in that crash received minor injuries and was treated and released from a medical facility the same day.

Designed to take down other aircraft, the Raptor is a single-seat supersonic fighter that joined the service in 2005. It relies on stealth technology, sophisticated maneuvers can carry as many as eight short- and medium-range air-to-air missiles.

The F-22 Raptor fighter led manned aircraft in the Air Force’s most serious noncombat mishaps at nine accidents in fiscal year 2023, according to an analysis of Air Force Safety Center data obtained by Air Force Times. Six of those incidents involved flight operations, including a bird strike that forced an emergency landing and other mishaps that bent blades on an engine and other engine troubles. Another three incidents included mishaps during maintenance, including two while the aircraft were being towed.

Class B incidents involved between $600,000 and $2.5 million in damages, a permanent partial disability, inpatient hospitalization of three or more personnel, or a combination of those factors.

On average, 3 1/2 F-22s have been involved in Class B incidents annually during the past decade, according the latest available data compiled by the Air Force Safety Center in 2021.

The service owns a total 185 Raptors, an inventory it has proposed reducing to 153 in its fiscal year 2025 budget proposal.

[charlielima223]

Seems like despite what naysayers are claiming, F-22 will still fly...

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/05 ... e-f-15exs/

Some House lawmakers want to prevent the Air Force from retiring older F-22A Raptor fighters and keep the F-15EX Eagle II jets in production a year longer than the service had planned.

The House Armed Services Committee’s proposed fiscal 2025 National Defense Authorization Act would also allow the service to cut 56 A-10 Warthogs.

The Air Force originally planned to retire 250 aircraft in FY25 as part of its budget request in order to save more than $2 billion. Those retirements would include 32 of its Block 20 F-22 jets the service says would cost too much to prepare for combat.

The service had also planned to stop buying the Boeing-made F-15EX after FY25, capping the entire Eagle II program at 98. That would be six fewer than the total 104 the service had most recently planned to buy.

But the committee’s proposed NDAA, released Monday, would reverse those two decisions.

The FY23 NDAA stopped the Air Force from retiring those Block 20 F-22s through FY27. A congressional staffer told Defense News on Tuesday the latest proposed bill would keep the enacted provision in place, blocking the Air Force’s F-22 retirement plans.

The congressional staffer noted that lawmakers felt those F-22s — despite the cost associated with preparations for combat — are still relevant for a future fight.

“They’re still the best air superiority jets we have in the world today,” the staffer said.

I know they aim to retire the older block 20s Raptors, IMO that would be a VERY STUPID decision. That would mean they would have to reduce the size of their active fleet to fly for the dedicated training unit. I agree with the last statement about the F-22 being the best air superiority fighter we have. With even modest software and hardware updates/upgrades, a block 20 Raptor would still be a very lethal air to air fighter.

Updated edit
A fun little article to read.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-22s ... peninsula/