F-22 RAM Coatings/Limits on speed?

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 30 Nov 2022, 12:01

charlielima223 wrote:
Wow... the F-22 is a real powerhouse and loves to fly high and fast. People who say speed isn't necessity doesn't know the F-22.
The F-22 is truly the king of air-to-air in the west.

It was really cool to hear more about the F-117.

I enjoy that Youtube Channel. They have plenty of individuals that give incredible insight.

Totally agree with you here! :shock:

It must be very unnerving fighting against F-22 due to it having so incredibly superior qualities in almost every important category against pretty much anything. I see only F-35 being an actual challenge for F-22s due to having some equal or even better qualities.

Have to add that I really liked the way Jim Brown did the presentation. A relaxed way of presenting and a lot of examples from every day life.

optimist · by **optimist** » 30 Nov 2022, 13:43

Except for F-22 pilot chip Berke, that says, the least impressive thing about the F-22 is it's speed and it is fast. It is situational awareness that counts.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 01 Dec 2022, 06:09

optimist wrote:Except for F-22 pilot chip Berke, that says, the least impressive thing about the F-22 is it's speed and it is fast. It is situational awareness that counts.

Not argueing with a former fighter pilot but note what he says, "the least impressive thing is its speed and maneuverability". The F-22's kinematic capabilities is one of its features to being the exceptional air-to-air fighter it is. Compare the F-15C and the F-15E. The F-15C is a better in air-to-air over the E because of its speed and maneuverability.

I could give an A-7 all the modern avionics and weapons in the world but I wouldn't want that aircraft flying a CAP instead of a F-15C.

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 01 Dec 2022, 10:02

optimist wrote:Except for F-22 pilot chip Berke, that says, the least impressive thing about the F-22 is it's speed and it is fast. It is situational awareness that counts.

That's definitely true. F-22 is faster and more maneuverable than almost anything else flying but the difference isn't anywhere near as overwhelming as the situational awareness superiority. Besides, even F-22 is not faster or more maneuverable than modern missiles. So even slower and less maneuverable aircraft or any larger SAM system could kill it if not for the VLO stealth and superior SA.

I think it's just that people understand going faster and being more maneuverable but it's difficult to really understand SA superiority and stealth.

optimist · by **optimist** » 03 Dec 2022, 22:45

They can't talk about the good stuff. So all we are left with are wiki specs. The 3-4th gen higher,faster, maneuverable, is what wins. Is still a widely held belief. Even WVR, HMS and OBS missiles don't get much credit. It's the guns only, dog fights that heats the blood.

optimist · by **optimist** » 03 Dec 2022, 22:53

charlielima223 wrote:
optimist wrote:Except for F-22 pilot chip Berke, that says, the least impressive thing about the F-22 is it's speed and it is fast. It is situational awareness that counts.

Not argueing with a former fighter pilot but note what he says, "the least impressive thing is its speed and maneuverability". The F-22's kinematic capabilities is one of its features to being the exceptional air-to-air fighter it is. Compare the F-15C and the F-15E. The F-15C is a better in air-to-air over the E because of its speed and maneuverability.

I could give an A-7 all the modern avionics and weapons in the world but I wouldn't want that aircraft flying a CAP instead of a F-15C.

Isn't the F-15 a lame dog, compared to the F-16 maneuverability.

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 03 Dec 2022, 23:32

You guys are very binary in your interpretation of operator statements.

‘Less important’ doesn’t mean ‘not important.’

Put LtCol Berke in an A-10 w F-35 sensors/fusion and ask him how he feels about kinematics.

optimist · by **optimist** » 04 Dec 2022, 00:20

Does he have full SA and are killing them BVR. Without them even knowing he is there? If not, I don't think he'd be happy.
Next week, there may be drones assisting.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 04 Dec 2022, 09:43

optimist wrote:Isn't the F-15 a lame dog, compared to the F-16 maneuverability.

That depends...
If the Viper has one bag of fuel and two wing tip sidewinders, (I think) that is the Vipers best load out and almost nothing could beat that in a rate fight. If that Viper is looking heavy with two bags of gas and 4 missiles while that Eagle is 1 bag of gas and 4 missiles... things might be equal. If that Viper is jumped during a self escort air to ground by a not a pound for ground Eagle, things could favor the Eagle. General concensus is down low and fast the Viper is very comfortable but up high where the Eagle was designed to fight, things start to swing towards the Eagle.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 04 Dec 2022, 09:50

quicksilver wrote:You guys are very binary in your interpretation of operator statements.

‘Less important’ doesn’t mean ‘not important.’

Put LtCol Berke in an A-10 w F-35 sensors/fusion and ask him how he feels about kinematics.

Thumbs up to you good sir!

I've heard this saying alot when I was in the Army concerning things like regulations and all other kinds of dumb stuff that senior command and leadership always push down, "you can add to but you cant take away from".

An F-14 would not have been as good as it was without its AWG-9 and without the AWG-9 the F-14 would have simply been a faster F-4.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 04 Dec 2022, 10:00

Back to the topic at hand though...

I would make a good wager and say that these new RAM coatings we saw and the F-22 most likely made their way to the recently unvailed B-21.

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 05 Dec 2022, 06:06

optimist wrote:

Isn't the F-15 a lame dog, compared to the F-16 maneuverability.

The F-15C isn't. It depends on the altitude and airspeed, as well.

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 05 Dec 2022, 20:29

“It depends on the altitude and airspeed, as well.”

x2

zero-one · by **zero-one** » 05 Dec 2022, 21:58

optimist wrote:Except for F-22 pilot chip Berke, that says, the least impressive thing about the F-22 is it's speed and it is fast. It is situational awareness that counts.

But if you ask F-22 pilot Col. Terry Scott on whats the F-22’s greatest strength, he says its the flight controls and the ability of the jet to move and maneuver better than any adversary. Speed is also critical as the difference between an intercept at point 9 mach and 1.5 mach is such that the enemy can’t react

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 05 Dec 2022, 22:20

https://www.avm-mag.com/aerobotix-marks ... -aircraft/

With funding from the Air Force’s Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) and Small Business Technology Transfer (STTR) programs, Aerobotix developed an automated painting system that restores the performance coatings on F-22 air inlet ducts far more quickly, cost efficiently and accurately than doing so by hand. Aerobotix refurbished its first F-22 in 2016 and is on track to restore its 50th by early 2023.

“Our robotic technology can paint these units using only about 300 hours of labor, rather than 1,600 hours,” said project manager Bret Benvenuti, a senior robotics engineer at Aerobotix. “That’s a labor saving of around 80%, so it really solves the challenge of getting these aircraft back into service quicker. We estimate that since 2016, we’ve helped the Air Force save $8.8 million – $220,000 per aircraft – in maintenance costs.”