USAF wants to retire 33 Raptors

[Corsair1963]

Based on what? Why would USAF invest almost $11 billion into F-22 upgrades to 2031 and spend over $1 billion this year in NGAD?

Exactly. We're already short aircraft, and not currently buying F-35s fast enough, and now we're going to retire all F-22s before NGAD enters service? That's quite simply, bullshit. We're spending billions on upgrades to the combat coded F-22s, which won't even be finished till the end of the decade. Those 153 jets aren't going anywhere until NGAD is available in numbers, and demonstrated maturity, just like General after General have said. F-22s will serve alongside NGAD for years, before the fleet is divested. We've got to replace F-16, and A-10 squadrons along with F-15C squadrons, long before we can think about replacing F-22 squadrons.

Well, with that logic they shouldn't even retire the older block 20 F-22's. Yet, the USAF wants to retire "33" of them and that is a substantial number with just 185 remaining Raptors in inventory.

[Corsair1963]

Your thinking is delusional because it is all based on your assumption that F-35 is somehow as good as an F-22 and can replace it before NGAD becomes operational. This is false. The F-35 will be good at air combat, but it's not as good as an F-22, and the USAF still cares very much about a dedicated air superiority platform in the NGAD, even if it will have some multirole ground attack ability (just like F-22 now). They wouldn't be investing so heavily in NGAD if the F-35 is as good as you say, would they?

The F-35 is not a bridge between F-22 and NGAD, no matter how much you think, and you're making bad assumptions on what the USAF wants in terms of air superiority.

Also, fix your broken quoting.

How many times do we have to ask the same basic question? Which, you and others simply ignore.

That is between now and when the NGAD enters service in 2040. What fighter could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

Waiting.............

[disconnectedradical]

Your thinking is delusional because it is all based on your assumption that F-35 is somehow as good as an F-22 and can replace it before NGAD becomes operational. This is false. The F-35 will be good at air combat, but it's not as good as an F-22, and the USAF still cares very much about a dedicated air superiority platform in the NGAD, even if it will have some multirole ground attack ability (just like F-22 now). They wouldn't be investing so heavily in NGAD if the F-35 is as good as you say, would they?

The F-35 is not a bridge between F-22 and NGAD, no matter how much you think, and you're making bad assumptions on what the USAF wants in terms of air superiority.

Also, fix your broken quoting.

How many times do we have to ask the same basic question? Which, you and others simply ignore.

That is between now and when the NGAD enters service in 2040. What fighter could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

Waiting.............

USAF planning for its fighter fleet and force structure isn't based on how good you think the F-35 is. USAF has a clear doctrinal role for air superiority fighters, and the planned F-35 numbers don' t affect how many air superiority fighters (F-22 and NGAD) it needs. The F-35 being multirole aircraft that replaces F-16s, A-10s, so whatever it's capable of, and the planned 1,763 aircraft is meant to replace those fighters, not the F-22 because the F-35 doesn't fill the same dedicated role and doctrine as the F-22.

Whatever F-35 is capable of, the F-22 is a better air-to-air fighter and fills a dedicated air superiority role in USAF fighter fleet that will be filled in the future by NGAD, not by F-35. Is F-35 good? Yes, but the F-22 is better and the NGAD will increase that gap, and that's what USAF wants.

The biggest problem with the F-22 fleet is that USAF didn't get enough of them, for reasons that at the time might have made some sense, but in hindsight was a serious mistake, and something USAF wants to avoid making the same mistake with NGAD. They outright said they want to have 300+ NGAD.

Your argument is absurd.

[Corsair1963]

Your thinking is delusional because it is all based on your assumption that F-35 is somehow as good as an F-22 and can replace it before NGAD becomes operational. This is false. The F-35 will be good at air combat, but it's not as good as an F-22, and the USAF still cares very much about a dedicated air superiority platform in the NGAD, even if it will have some multirole ground attack ability (just like F-22 now). They wouldn't be investing so heavily in NGAD if the F-35 is as good as you say, would they?

The F-35 is not a bridge between F-22 and NGAD, no matter how much you think, and you're making bad assumptions on what the USAF wants in terms of air superiority.

Also, fix your broken quoting.

How many times do we have to ask the same basic question? Which, you and others simply ignore.

That is between now and when the NGAD enters service in 2040. What fighter could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

Waiting.............

USAF planning for its fighter fleet and force structure isn't based on how good you think the F-35 is. USAF has a clear doctrinal role for air superiority fighters, and the planned F-35 numbers don' t affect how many air superiority fighters (F-22 and NGAD) it needs. The F-35 being multirole aircraft that replaces F-16s, A-10s, so whatever it's capable of, and the planned 1,763 aircraft is meant to replace those fighters, not the F-22 because the F-35 doesn't fill the same dedicated role and doctrine as the F-22.

Whatever F-35 is capable of, the F-22 is a better air-to-air fighter and fills a dedicated air superiority role in USAF fighter fleet that will be filled in the future by NGAD, not by F-35. Is F-35 good? Yes, but the F-22 is better and the NGAD will increase that gap, and that's what USAF wants.

The biggest problem with the F-22 fleet is that USAF didn't get enough of them, for reasons that at the time might have made some sense, but in hindsight was a serious mistake, and something USAF wants to avoid making the same mistake with NGAD. They outright said they want to have 300+ NGAD.

Your argument is absurd.

WOW you can't even answer a simple question. Just more double talk.........

So, I'll ask it again...between now and when the NGAD arrives. What fighter or fighters could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

[disconnectedradical]

WOW you can't even answer a simple question. Just more double talk.........

So, I'll ask it again...between now and when the NGAD arrives. What fighter or fighters could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

J-20 and Su-57 can be challenging in some situations especially if they complicate command and control. They may not be overall as good, but guess what, F-35 merely being "better" is not enough, it needs something decisively better. The F-22 is more capable in the air-to-air mission than the F-35, and that capability goes into USAF tactical planning.

If you have both aircraft, would you rather take an F-35 for air-to-air, or an F-22?

Your argument is irrelevant because that's not how USAF plans for its fight.

[Corsair1963]

WOW you can't even answer a simple question. Just more double talk.........

So, I'll ask it again...between now and when the NGAD arrives. What fighter or fighters could seriously challenge the F-22 that the F-35 could not???

J-20 and Su-57 can be challenging in some situations especially if they complicate command and control. They may not be overall as good, but guess what, F-35 merely being "better" is not enough, it needs something decisively better. The F-22 is more capable in the air-to-air mission than the F-35, and that capability goes into USAF tactical planning.

If you have both aircraft, would you rather take an F-35 for air-to-air, or an F-22?

Your argument is irrelevant because that's not how USAF plans for its fight.

Absurd I doubt the majority consider either the J-20 or Su-57 as a serious challenge to the F-35 today or in the future....

Thank you for making my point....

Also, your analogy on what aircraft you would rather have to take into Air to Air Combat is somewhat misleading.

If, it was 1944 and I had a choice between the F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair. Most would of course pick the latter. Yet, if your opponent was the Zero would it really matter? That is of course my point......

[disconnectedradical]

Absurd I doubt the majority consider either the J-20 or Su-57 as a serious challenge to the F-35 today or in the future....

Thank you for making my point....

Also, your analogy on what aircraft you would rather have to take into Air to Air Combat is somewhat misleading.

If, it was 1944 and I had a choice between the F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair. Most would of course pick the latter. Yet, if your opponent was the Zero would it really matter? That is of course my point......

You're absurd if you think that USAF requirements for air superiority is only driven by whether or not the J-20 or Su-57 is "better" than the F-35, with whatever metric you want to define. It doesn't matter if the F-35 is "better", if USAF doesn't think it's good enough to meet its requirements for air superiority, and those requirements aren't just based on 1v1 comparison with another fighter. The F-22 for example can carry 33% more missiles than F-35 even when it gets the Sidekick. It has much better performance.

I said it elsewhere and I'll say it again. As much as you keep wanting to repeat to yourself, the force structure around F-22s and NGAD is not dependent on F-35s. The F-35 is not as good as the F-22 in air-to-air, and is not a replacement, NGAD is. Period.

General Brown and Hinote have said again and again, F-22 retirement is event driven, and they hope that it's in the 2030s as that's when NGAD will be operational in sufficient numbers. 2030s is the goal based on conditions, not a hard and fast deadline.

[Corsair1963]

Absurd I doubt the majority consider either the J-20 or Su-57 as a serious challenge to the F-35 today or in the future....

Thank you for making my point....

Also, your analogy on what aircraft you would rather have to take into Air to Air Combat is somewhat misleading.

If, it was 1944 and I had a choice between the F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair. Most would of course pick the latter. Yet, if your opponent was the Zero would it really matter? That is of course my point......

You're absurd if you think that USAF requirements for air superiority is only driven by whether or not the J-20 or Su-57 is "better" than the F-35, with whatever metric you want to define. It doesn't matter if the F-35 is "better", if USAF doesn't think it's good enough to meet its requirements for air superiority, and those requirements aren't just based on 1v1 comparison with another fighter. The F-22 for example can carry 33% more missiles than F-35 even when it gets the Sidekick. It has much better performance.

I said it elsewhere and I'll say it again. As much as you keep wanting to repeat to yourself, the force structure around F-22s and NGAD is not dependent on F-35s. The F-35 is not as good as the F-22 in air-to-air, and is not a replacement, NGAD is. Period.

General Brown and Hinote have said again and again, F-22 retirement is event driven, and they hope that it's in the 2030s as that's when NGAD will be operational in sufficient numbers. 2030s is the goal based on conditions, not a hard and fast deadline.

QUOTE:

The Air Force Is Planning For a Future Without the F-22

May 12, 2021

Just four fighters will make up the future fleet: F-35, F-16, F-15EX, and NGAD, chief says.

The U.S. Air Force aims to pare its fighter fleet to just four types — and the F-22 Raptor won’t be among them, the service’s top general said Wednesday.

Those four will be the F-35, F-15EX, F-16, and the Next Generation Air Dominance, or NGAD, fighter, Gen. CQ Brown, Air Force chief of staff, said at a McAleese and Associates virtual conference.

“Right now we have seven fighter fleets,” Brown said. “My intent is to get down to about four, OK, and with that four, what is the right mix?”

Brown said the fighter makeup is “really a four-plus-one, because we're going to have the A-10 for a while as we re-wing” the venerable Warthog to extend its service life into the 2030s.

The F-22 will be replaced by the NGAD jet, which will fly alongside the “F-35, which will be the cornerstone, [the] F-15EX as we come in, and then we'll have F-16 for a while as well,” Brown said.

The Air Force currently has 186 F-22s, according to a Heritage Foundation count in November. They are just 12 years old on average, Heritage reported, making the type among the youngest in the fleet. But the F-22 has faced low mission capability rates, in part due to structural upgrades that often take multiple aircraft offline.

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2 ... 22/174001/

Then several months later the USAF cuts "33" F-22's.


You do the math..........

[disconnectedradical]

You do the math..........[/b]

From your very source, the F-22 is being replaced by NGAD, period. There is no gap between the two filled by the F-35, or you'll see him saying that there will be a period of time without either F-22 or NGAD, and that's not the case. I can quote sources too.

“We’re treating [the F-22] as the bridge to the NGAD capability,” he said, using an acronym for the Next Generation Air Dominance program, under which the service plans to develop a sixth-generation fighter to replace the F-22.

Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development, occurring closer to the 2030s than in the upcoming fiscal year 2022 budget cycle.
“We don’t have to make that decision this year,” he said. “What we’re going to want to see is, when do we press from the NGAD being a developmental program to being a production program? Some people call that milestone C.”

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/

The USAF is looking for the NGAD that does better than what the F-22 can do in air-to-air as the replacement. So why would they prematurely retire the F-22 the with an F-35 stopgap that's not as good in air-to-air?

[Corsair1963]

You do the math..........[/b]

From your very source, the F-22 is being replaced by NGAD, period. There is no gap between the two filled by the F-35, or you'll see him saying that there will be a period of time without either F-22 or NGAD, and that's not the case. I can quote sources too.

“We’re treating [the F-22] as the bridge to the NGAD capability,” he said, using an acronym for the Next Generation Air Dominance program, under which the service plans to develop a sixth-generation fighter to replace the F-22.

Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development, occurring closer to the 2030s than in the upcoming fiscal year 2022 budget cycle.
“We don’t have to make that decision this year,” he said. “What we’re going to want to see is, when do we press from the NGAD being a developmental program to being a production program? Some people call that milestone C.”

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05 ... successor/

The USAF is looking for the NGAD that does better than what the F-22 can do in air-to-air as the replacement. So why would they prematurely retire the F-22 the with an F-35 stopgap that's not as good in air-to-air?

Sorry, your just going to have to learn to live with it.............

[madrat]

They should probably park them in barns at Area 51 if they take any out of service. No access to prying eyes there.

[charlielima223]

@Corsair
Must you walk into every thread and ruin it with your usual "F-35 is bestest" rant?

Back to the topic at hand.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/oldest- ... o-service/
If they're able to take the oldest F-22 out of storage and make it operational again for test and development flights again, why cant they take these block 20 F-22s and turn them into combat aircraft?

[madrat]

It's pretty clear the current Air Force head is planning to cut the service in half over 5 years.

[charlielima223]

It's pretty clear the current Air Force head is planning to cut the service in half over 5 years.

Too many good idea fairies flying around in command. However if Congress is smart (fingers crossed) they can block the USAF's decision. Hell how long have they been blocking USAF's A-10 decision?

[weasel1962]

The latest "good idea" appears to be f-22 in chrome...